/help/bug report

MycroftHolmes
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by MycroftHolmes » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm

Well if it leads to internal balancing, or even review, and a tooltip in-game, I am pleased to be your outlier guinea pig.

I would give the attention to this matter a 4th star if I could, but the system won't allow it.
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by MycroftHolmes » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:43 am

I was thinking more about this issue, and see another problem in the case of a player having an outlier experience on the other end of the spectrum. One in which they buy only Universal Packs, get XP, but only pull 1-2 hero cards and the rest building tools. Eventually, as you say, the law of averages would prevail, but early on they would be propelled into a nearly game-breaking state where even shards their own level are impossible to clear, yet do not give many orbs.

Now, I don't know how you implemented XP in the code, or whether it is sophiticated enough to already track the types of cards a player pulls (even if it is not tied in with the XP system), but I have come up with a solution that "should" solve both extremes without upsetting the apple cart -- XP weighted draws.

Simply put, if a hero card is drawn, then the player receives flat XP for it. If a shard card is drawn, the player receives no XP. Let's take a look at a hypothetical example:

Levels 1-9 require 10 XP to level up.
Possibilities:
- Player opens Hero Pack (5 XP)
- Player opens Universal Pack gains 5 hero cards (5 XP)
- Player opens Universal Pack gains 4 hero cards, 1 shard card (4 XP)
- Player opens Universal Pack gains 3 hero cards, 2 shard cards (3 XP)
- Player opens Universal Pack gains 2 hero cards, 3 shard cards (2 XP)
- Player opens Universal Pack gains 1 hero card, 4 shard cards (1 XP)
- Player opens Universal Pack gains 0 hero cards, 5 shard cards (0 XP)
- Player opens Creator Pack (0 XP)

So then we can see that no matter what choice the player makes, and what RNG result is obtained, neither outlying situation will occur.

In my case, as I drew an uncommonly high number of hero cards in my Universal Packs, I would have been gaining 30-40% of a level instead of the flat 25%, and by the time I switched to buying Creator Packs, I would have already been roughly level 10 rather than stuck at 8.

In the opposite scenario, the player drawing uncommonly low number of hero cards per Universal Pack would only gain 10-20% of a level rather than being forced to level with hardly any real gain in hero power, especially if the cards were class specific, spread out, dupes, or non-essential "niche" pieces. They might elect to switch to buying Hero Packs, at which point their level would be lower than it would be with the current system, enough to absorb the 5 XP pulls without sending them into a breaking state as they amass the right cards.

Can you see a flaw in this solution that I missed? Is it too difficult to implement into the existing framework? Is it too simple? I always love to hear ideas, and how to improve upon mine.
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by TheLurkingRage » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:59 am

MycroftHolmes wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:43 am
I was thinking more about this issue, and see another problem in the case of a player having an outlier experience on the other end of the spectrum. One in which they buy only Universal Packs, get XP, but only pull 1-2 hero cards and the rest building tools. Eventually, as you say, the law of averages would prevail, but early on they would be propelled into a nearly game-breaking state where even shards their own level are impossible to clear, yet do not give many orbs.
Game doesn't really work like that... Only way to simulate that would actually be to shatter all hero gear available and then proceed to try to play only the higher level shards while ignoring the lower level ones.... I opened nothing but Universal packs as those were the only thing available and got pretty bad RNG and I'm still going... You don't get stuck to a certain range of levels, you can always do lower levels meaning even if you shattered all your hero gear and had absolutely nothing but naked heroes, you most certainly wouldn't get stuck or hit a wall... I honestly don't know why they make it sound like it is like that with the whole creator packs not giving XP in fear of this because it is an irrational fear. If anything it's an issue with the best for me tab always pushing for you to level up to do the levels it recommends that are too high level and instead of actually giving you the most rewarding shards you can do based on your range or hero selected. In fact you know what, imma pretend to shatter all the hero gear I've gotten up to now, and show you that even a level 27 with absolutely no gear at all can still manage to progress because I can always do low level shards. I already do thousands of low level shards so might as well. Only thing tho is that the higher level you are, the harder it gets to progress from lower level shards so the higher level you are, the harder it will be to get back up from resetting yourself. But alas, if I'm to be the first one to do this to show how irrational this fear is, so be it. I want either equal progression rates across all levels (not faster progression, but rather more like equal pay for equal work), and/or for creator packs to give XP too because it is unfair to players that focus on their heroes first, and players that focus on creator packs don't realize how good they have it and believe they're being screwed over when they're actually being rewarded and hero-focused players are the ones on the bad receiving end. Once I pass 2M glory this season I will livestream what it would be like to progress as a level 27 with absolutely no gear at all to show it can be done and there's no such wall to hit for progression based on the gear you have available from the packs you open, but rather the "wall" (more of an incline like going up a hill), are the levels... they slow down progression, for no reason - it's not like being higher leveled = easier orbs, it's the other way around.

There are thousands of shards you could be playing. You have it easier, it's just you don't have access to the database and can't find all of them. It's why I follow everyone I run into, even people from comments. If they're not already following me I will follow them even if they have nothing but bad shards, in some cases even no shards at all because it's the only way to have access to more shards once you've exhausted the shards available for you to play on the in-game tabs.
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by MycroftHolmes » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:09 am

A player might still be able to progress, but if being higher level only clearing lower shards yields so little reward, wouldn't the average player experience burn out? Maybe that is what they were afraid of when they decided Creator packs will not give experience.

Also, go through your shard lists and X out every shard over level 13, now how many shards can you play? Once they are all ✔ I imagine not too many. It is a little better now that I can access up to level 15 shards, but I don't control shard levels, the community does. And the higher ones *tend* to be, but are not necessarily better, because low level shards are all inexperienced Creators can make.

I'm still locked out from finishing some of the quest lines from my Following list, but that incentivizes me to reach that goal. I am back to buying just Creator packs again. Hopefully I can implement more of my ideas soon.
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by Luminaar » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:31 pm

MycroftHolmes wrote:... early on they would be propelled into a nearly game-breaking state ...
The solution looks good (although I may be a little biased as I did happen to propose it myself as well :P)

The most notable issue however is with just how little of a difference it makes overall. My math may be a little shaky, but with opening just 20 Universal packs / 100 cards at the start of the game, 99.9936% of pulls will be within a 70/30 distribution of Hero/Creator cards in one way of the other. That's a 1 in 15787 shot that a player ends up with less than 30 of a card type, 1 in 31574 that it's less than 30 Hero cards specifically. (It goes pretty wild from there, with a 75/25 distribution being 1 in 1,744,278 ...)

Even with "only" 25 Hero cards however, this still wouldn't be anywhere near to game breaking :P Using a similar example to your own situation, a level 6 hero equipped 2 levels lower than they expect to be (as a level 4) is far from being in a game breaking state, or in a position where shards their own level are impossible to clear. Shards that are underneath level 6 still give a good number of orbs, while beating a shard of the same level would only be marginally more difficult.

This is also not taking rarities into account. :D Just 1 of those cards being a decent rarity can carry a player through the early game for a long time. There are even a few really good common and rare items which can do something similar.

The suggestion is sound, in that it completely reduces variance and eliminates the extremely unlikely chance (no hero cards in 4 packs is just over 1 in a million, and it only gets less likely from there!) of someone leveling up to a game breaking point. Difficulties in retroactive implementation aside however, it's an unnecessary load on the server to make "after the fact" calculations based on the pack results.
TheLurkingRage wrote:I honestly don't know why they make it sound like it is like that with the whole creator packs not giving XP in fear of this
While manually selecting shards will give you a way to progress even if you do strip down to zero items and abilities, it's really not a good experience for the average player. :D As detailed above, it really doesn't take many items to go from "weak" to "competent". Intentionally forcing players into a weakened position however isn't desirable for anyone. :)
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by TheLurkingRage » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:06 am

MycroftHolmes wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:09 am
if being higher level only clearing lower shards yields so little reward, wouldn't the average player experience burn out? Maybe that is what they were afraid of when they decided Creator packs will not give experience.

But that's the way it already is... It's not a "what if it were to happen" situation, it already works this way and it's screwing hero-focused players over. I play mostly low level shards that yield small rewards (big for low levels) because I'm much higher leveled and there are more low level shards than higher leveled.
Image
Image
I and anyone higher leveled has this issue. It's just because I'm a grinder that the issue is more perceivable. So essentially what I'm saying is either all Card Packs should screw us over equally, or there should be not such screwing over XD Make all card packs give the same XP as Universal and give us the same pay for the same work.
MycroftHolmes wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:09 am
Also, go through your shard lists and X out every shard over level 13, now how many shards can you play? Once they are all ✔ I imagine not too many.
More than higher leveled ones, it's definitely in the thousands...
MycroftHolmes wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:09 am
low level shards are all inexperienced Creators can make.
Doesn't take much to make a high level shard. I made a level 8 shard that became a level 31 and there are more shards alike. Low level shards aren't all inexperienced creators can make, it's bad shards.
Luminaar wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:31 pm
Intentionally forcing players into a weakened position however isn't desirable for anyone.
But why? Because it wouldn't be fun? Because progression would be slower? Because it would be a hassle? So why is it like that then? Why do we earn less and less for the same work the higher leveled we are? Why force players into a slower progression rate the more they progress with their heroes but be so kind to players that focus on creator packs? Don't you see, it's the same issue you're afraid of that is the issue rn but kind of opposite and worse in a way, cuz the higher leveled you are, the less orbs you'll get so the less creator packs you'll be able to get when you try to focus on creators packs after. If it's technically possible for us to get Creator Card Packs later on at higher levels, why wouldn't it be to get Hero Packs later on when you're high level and opened nothing but creator packs? If you've got no gear at high level it's not as bad as an issue as it is if you're high level with no shards because you can always get gear and be set with any half decent set up fixing the issue of being in a weakened state, but with the way it is now being high level and then trying to get creatures and such, takes more effort and there's no way to fix that issue cuz you can't do anything to get more orbs and fix the issue of gaining less orbs.

Once you get all hero gear, there's nothing left to unlock for heroes, but once you unlock all realms, sharstones and creatures, you're always gonna need to unlock more to make more shards.
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by Luminaar » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:57 am

TheLurkingRage wrote:
MycroftHolmes wrote:Also, go through your shard lists and X out every shard over level 13, now how many shards can you play? Once they are all ✔ I imagine not too many.
More than higher leveled ones, it's definitely in the thousands...
Lurk has a bunch of 12 hour streams, always aims for the stars, and is 110% dedicated to any grind he puts his mind to. You can find one of them here.
TheLurkingRage wrote:I play mostly low level shards that yield small rewards
I'm not sure purposefully taking high leveled heroes to stomp over low difficulty shards counts as being screwed over :P

Let me clarify. Intentionally forcing players into a weakened position by assigning more difficult levels due to an unrelated event isn't desireable. You remember the issues with B-coin Mines and Server Farms raising network levels right? ... and that was with resource generators still helping you improve programs/nodes (unlike Creator packs which are for a different aspect of the game.) :D

It's certainly less of a big deal in MONOLISK, since you can manually select weaker shards unlike networks, but it does ruin the flow/intention of elements such as "Best for Me" and "Play next suitable level", especially as there are only so many useable metrics to base them from.
TheLurkingRage wrote:Why do we earn less and less for the same work the higher leveled we are?
Having more gear will make it less work/easier (to a point), as you get better gear and more options. There's also the ability to get more (and in most cases "something") from high level shards that are inaccessible/unbeatable for others.

I do see your point however, and we might end up needing something like a temporary level cap (just for calculations, not to prevent leveling) to limit the scaling for players opening tons of packs. Don't mistake reduced rewards for level stomping as "forcing players into a weakened position" though.

I'm pretty sure Lada still regrets rounding up rep for network triple-caps from 1 to 3, so don't quote me on the proposed remedy ... :lol:
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by MycroftHolmes » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:39 am

I watched an hour of one of his streams today on my day off, and I don't want to know the star rating he gives to my shards :shock:

(edit: he gave The Dark Path a 2* @ 8:43:00 in his Live 6 video. It was really cool to see my shard being played. My favorite part was when he busts into the infested Cadaver room and says "I'm actually gonna die here, honestly... unless I got my health back like that, nice!" right after doggin' the Shadow class and only dipping to about half HP. It's amazing how many routes you can take to full clear to the exit such a simple shard as that. I did at least a half dozen variations in testing and never did it in quite that order.)

I was envious of the content he was able to access, and in awe of his melee hero's ability to stand toe to toe with so many strong packs of enemies. But it was still cool to be able to watch these locked shards being played, listen to a veteran comment on them, and by that token gain insight into what might make me a better shard Creator / make my shards more desirable.

I did learn that to get 3 stars from Lurking there is a practical element to the layout I need to keep in mind (like in my Top shard The Dark Path) in which the run ought to be both interesting yet straightforward. I already laid blueprints for my next shard with his indirect feedback in mind and the paint hasn't even dried on my newest creation (which Lurking may not approve of despite it being my most difficult shard so far).

I do see what he is getting at seeing an advantage to focusing on amassing Creation cards first to keep your income potential higher across all shards, and then finally work on your heroes and take the "hit". I'm not certain he would truly be satisfied playing a weak hero and only a portion of the shards he has beaten (be it 70-80% still) just to get a few extra orbs per run. Doesn't seem to be hurting his farming stats, and his playstyle does seem at odds with being more limited. Does form follow function, or function follow form? I suppose the grass is always greener...
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by TheLurkingRage » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:24 am

Luminaar wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:57 am
TheLurkingRage wrote:Why do we earn less and less for the same work the higher leveled we are?
Having more gear will make it less work/easier (to a point), as you get better gear and more options. There's also the ability to get more (and in most cases "something") from high level shards that are inaccessible/unbeatable for others.
Roight, and that's relying on the leveling system which many of us don't like because it limits us. Going up 10 levels using the same gear cuz you've gotten nothing better to beat shards with and getting less rewards for the same work isn't a good experience. Having to open up packs top level up and get nothing good out of them just to be able to play a higher leveled shard that you would've been able to do 10 levels ago isn't a good experience either. Multiple issues surround the leveling system, and talking about orb gain that's one of them. You're not necessarily having it easier than some player 10 levels below you, but you are getting paid less. The higher level the shard is, the more orbs you get - but they cap at 30 orbs so that means that the higher leveled you are, the harder you have to work for orbs. I beat level 32 shards (highest in my range) with my Arcane Mage that I've had since 15+ levels ago. Why couldn't I get it done then? and if I coulda got it done then if there were no level range cap, since clearing higher level shards tend to be more work cuz they're harder then it should also pay more so neither the orb cap nor the leveling system make any sense. It's a flawed system.

It's just like working at any job irl and getting paid less for simply being more experienced in your field and paying inexperienced workers more. Makes no sense. More and more players are level capping themselves knowing how progression really takes a nose dive the higher leveled you are and how it becomes increasingly harder to grind. If the glory system got overhauled to make every shard a viable source of glory, then why can't it be the same for orbs? Is it to give more incentive to play higher level shards? If so, why the cap at 30 orbs and why the level range cap at all? It doesn't seem to have any real benefit that I can see, it just seems to be there to keep players from progressing too fast - which I personally don't see how it could possibly benefit the game as people see such incline in difficulty to advance as "hitting a wall" and sounds to me like that's the excuse for creator packs not giving XP, so... it's like you're aware of the issues and at the same time not... weird.

You could argue that giving players the ability to play any shard regardless of level could in a way ruin the experience for them by making them feel too weak and quit but idk I feel like that would have the opposite psychological effect and probably would result in more players purchasing packs if anything to make that feeling go away, so honestly I think changing these restrictions would only benefit the game, unless I'm blind to some crucial role these restrictions may play on the gaming experience or such.
MycroftHolmes wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:39 am
I was envious of the content he was able to access, and in awe of his melee hero's ability to stand toe to toe with so many strong packs of enemies. But it was still cool to be able to watch these locked shards being played, listen to a veteran comment on them, and by that token gain insight into what might make me a better shard Creator / make my shards more desirable.

I did learn that to get 3 stars from Lurking there is a practical element to the layout I need to keep in mind (like in my Top shard The Dark Path) in which the run ought to be both interesting yet straightforward. I already laid blueprints for my next shard with his indirect feedback in mind and the paint hasn't even dried on my newest creation (which Lurking may not approve of despite it being my most difficult shard so far).
Yeah I try to make my livestreams worthwhile by giving feedback, tips, and talking anything monolisk related and such, so glad that's working and helping you understand what makes a good shard. Here's my rating systems I've used:

Rating based on glory:
less than 500 glory = 1 star
more than 500 glory but less than 1K = 2 stars
1K and higher = 3 stars

Rating based on enjoyment:
Would never want to play again = 1 star
Wouldn't mind playing again = 2 stars
Would definitely go out of my way to play again even without rewards = 3 stars

And glory per minute gained:
less than 500 glory per minute = 1 star
more than 500 glory per minute but less than 1K = 2 stars
1K and higher glory per minute = 3 stars

I'll switch between these depending on what I feel like the shard deserves more. If it's a shard that I genuinely enjoy but it doesn't dish out more than 500 glory and I'm feeling generous, or if it's a shard I don't like but gives good glory gain and I feel frustrated, I'll use the rating system based on enjoyment. If it's a popular shard that has good ratings and doesn't really need my 3 stars, if I don't feel generous I'll use the rating system that will give it the least stars. They are competition after all, I wouldn't want to make it harder for myself to be on builder leaderboard by helping them sustain their spot above me, so I tend to do this most often when playing through Vir's profile for example. But if it's a new player and they're trying to make something interesting I might use which ever rating system nets them the most stars. It just gives me great flexibility to rate shards however I see fit, with good consistency.

If you'd like to learn more you can watch my latest "video" >here< where I talk about what makes a good shard and show examples. If you're to take anything away from my rating systems is that 1 star doesn't necessarily mean I dislike your shard just like 3 stars doesn't necessarily mean I like your shard - I think my >first monolisk livestream< really highlights that the most.
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Re: /help/bug report

Post by Cassiopeia » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:26 pm

But: Artificer wearing Horned Cape and Squealing Jaws: When a Lesser Reaver kills baddies from it's death explosion, no charge orbs drop from the kills. According to the description of Horned Cape, they should drop.

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