Why you should upgrade Guardian.

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Silken
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Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Silken » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:03 pm

With the changes made. I thought I would make a post about why you should upgrade guardians. Or at least one.

The spreadsheet below looks at a typical choke point. Two Turrets - One Black Ice - onto a Scanner. The spreadsheet is balanced and looks at nodes and programs of the same level. I've only been able to go to level 11 due to wiki not yet completed.

Spreadsheet explained.
A - Node Level
B - Protector Strength
C - Sentry DPS
D - Turret DPS
E - Black Ice DPS
F - Total DPS (sentry*3 + Turret*2 + Black Ice)
G - Seconds which Protector Holds
H - Turret Firewall
I - Guardian
J - Beam DPS
K - Time Turret Holds - No Guardian (Firewall / (Beam DPS*2)
L - Time Turret Holds - 1 Guardian (Firewall + Guardian / (Beam DPS*2)
M - Time Turret Holds - 2 Guardians (Firewall + 2 Guardian / (Beam DPS*2)
N - Time Turret Holds - 3 Guardians (Firewall + 3 Guardian / (Beam DPS*2)

By subtracting column G from columns L, M or N, you will see that a second Protector is not required with no guardian. Having a levelled guardian means a person has to add another Protector.

It's interesting that Protector gets stronger. A case could be made for a Nerf. However, time factor is an issue in balancing. Whilst less time is needed on a choke, at higher levels we have more gates and more nodes. Therefore it's actually in keeping with what I would expect. And is balanced IMHO, but would need to be compared against other factors.

I also do not take into account Guardian re-adding another shield if time allows. So I would expect times to actually improve in real time defence. But it add another level of difficulty to the spreadsheet, which at this time I can't be arsed to do.

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Last edited by Silken on Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Silken
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Silken
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Re: Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Silken » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:00 pm

Edited. Spreadsheet before was using three Beams in the calculation. It should have been 2 Beams. So only one levelled Guardian is needed to force another Protector. Not two as I stated before.
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Luminaar
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Re: Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Luminaar » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:19 pm

Silken wrote:Edited. Spreadsheet before was using three Beams in the calculation. It should have been 2 Beams. So only one levelled Guardian is needed to force another Protector. Not two as I stated before.
Looks like practical information, but the comparisons seem unfair.

Column G should be something closer to ((B / (F - B * 0.07)), as Protectors regenerate 7% every second to counter incoming DPS.

Guardian Level 1 isn't available until Core 6. By the time folks are going up against a Lvl 1 Guardian, Beams are usually higher level than Level 1. Maybe do the comparison with BeamLvl +3 or 4?
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Silken
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Re: Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Silken » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:26 pm

Luminaar wrote:
Silken wrote:Edited. Spreadsheet before was using three Beams in the calculation. It should have been 2 Beams. So only one levelled Guardian is needed to force another Protector. Not two as I stated before.
Looks like practical information, but the comparisons seem unfair.

Column G should be something closer to ((B / (F - B * 0.07)), as Protectors regenerate 7% every second to counter incoming DPS.

Guardian Level 1 isn't available until Core 6. By the time folks are going up against a Lvl 1 Guardian, Beams are usually higher level than Level 1. Maybe do the comparison with BeamLvl +3 or 4?
Yeah forgot about regeneration. I'll add that in at some point. But then I didn't include normal node regeneration either. Because I'm not sure what that is, in a percentage term.

When I get time I'll add in a drop down to compare different levels. But I wanted the comparison to be balanced, that's the only way you should compare. Obviously real game play can/will be different.

TBH it was just to show the strength of guardians.

To me, it's looks as if you need two levelled Guardian to have a real impact.

I'll build up the spreadsheet later, but no time today. It was rushed.
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Re: Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Sibernetika » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:36 pm

I have one level one guardian in the front 2 turrets and 2 black ice attacking the level 1 guardian and thenva guardian that I level behind my defenses so far its level 4..waiting for my building threads to become available again
tH15 T3x7 i5 ju57 h3re 70 4NИ0y y0u :mrgreen:
01000001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01110011 01101111 00100000 01110111 01100001 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011 00100000 00111011 00101001
send nudes

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Re: Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Luminaar » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:42 pm

Silken wrote:TBH it was just to show the strength of guardians. To me, it's looks as if you need two levelled Guardian to have a real impact.
Absolutely, they look like they have much greater potential, and the balance between "essential" upgrades such as Gates and Beams seems a lot more in sync.

Sorry, wasn't intending to be nit-picky. There shouldn't be a need to include normal regeneration (did I read it was supposed to be 1% per second somehwere?) or delays such as the 0.5second Turret and Beam startup time, unless you wanted to go for super accuracy. The point has definitely been made - Guardians are looking buff!

It's nice it now plays a similar part to Scanner, in that it works well as a level 1 choke, yet still has potential as a levelled up node.
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Re: Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Silken » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:14 pm

Luminaar wrote:
Silken wrote:TBH it was just to show the strength of guardians. To me, it's looks as if you need two levelled Guardian to have a real impact.
Absolutely, they look like they have much greater potential, and the balance between "essential" upgrades such as Gates and Beams seems a lot more in sync.

Sorry, wasn't intending to be nit-picky. There shouldn't be a need to include normal regeneration (did I read it was supposed to be 1% per second somehwere?) or delays such as the 0.5second Turret and Beam startup time, unless you wanted to go for super accuracy. The point has definitely been made - Guardians are looking buff!

It's nice it now plays a similar part to Scanner, in that it works well as a level 1 choke, yet still has potential as a levelled up node.
If anything they now look essential. I always thought they were. Hence I levelled them. Protector looks so strong and gets stronger with the percentage regeneration. If anything that may need to be looked at.

Anything that increases as a percentage can quickly get out of control. 7% seems really high actually, when the damage against it looks to be 10% on average. Unless Black Ice scales up very quickly it's OP. But we don't currently have the data. Which actually goes back to an old poll I created. When I thought that one turret and two black ice could be the better choke at higher levels.

A turret without guardian looks über weak. A turret with one guardian looks average at mid level.

Two levelled guardians looks like a must have. At higher levels, not having two guardians looks as if it will be super weak. Althrough a guardian choke with gates is painful, I can see the appeal.
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Re: Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Luminaar » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:58 pm

Silken wrote:If anything they now look essential. I always thought they were. Hence I levelled them.
Aye, likewise. More things added to the essential list make for more choices and more variety in bases. It's all good! I did predict a Guardian + Gate meta on the way, we'll see if that holds.
Silken wrote:Protector looks so strong and gets stronger with the percentage regeneration. If anything that may need to be looked at.
Anything that increases as a percentage can quickly get out of control.
Yup, talking of predictions, I'm gonna throw my lot in with this now and say that this will be the next major thing to be rebalanced.
Silken wrote:A turret without guardian looks über weak. A turret with one guardian looks average at mid level. Two levelled guardians looks like a must have.
Agreed. Again, I think this will do great things for network creation and variety as folks level up. Protect or Choke? #starwarsmeme
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Re: Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Silken » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:57 pm

Luminaar wrote:
Silken wrote:Edited. Spreadsheet before was using three Beams in the calculation. It should have been 2 Beams. So only one levelled Guardian is needed to force another Protector. Not two as I stated before.
Looks like practical information, but the comparisons seem unfair.

Column G should be something closer to ((B / (F - B * 0.07)), as Protectors regenerate 7% every second to counter incoming DPS.

Guardian Level 1 isn't available until Core 6. By the time folks are going up against a Lvl 1 Guardian, Beams are usually higher level than Level 1. Maybe do the comparison with BeamLvl +3 or 4?
This has been annoying me all day. Because I don't think this is the correct calculation to use. But I can't get to a PC.

To add it into the spreadsheet I need to know if it regenerates at the total level of protection or takes in the factor of damage and recalculates regeneration on the new total level of protection after damage. I.e. If protection is 100 is regeneration always 7. Or a reducing number.

What I did notice is that the total damage of sentry and turret is actually about 7% on nodes and programs of the same level. Which means only Black Ice can actually take down a protector. On any other choke the damage is regenerated and one protector is enough.

:o

I sort of knew that already but....... :o
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Re: Why you should upgrade Guardian.

Post by Luminaar » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:19 pm

Silken wrote:To add it into the spreadsheet I need to know if it regenerates at the total level of protection or takes in the factor of damage and recalculates regeneration on the new total level of protection after damage. I.e. If protection is 100 is regeneration always 7. Or a reducing number.
I'm working on the assumption of it always being 7% of maximum buffer. I know there aren't too many replays available atm, but if you can catch one, (or remember from experience) if you've ever had a Protector down to low HP and managed to keep the node alive? If it takes ~15seconds to regen from empty to full, then it's regening 7% of max. A node down to 100HP takes about 30 seconds to get back to ~700HP by regenerating 7% of it's current HP (I think.)
Silken wrote:What I did notice is that the total damage of sentry and turret is actually about 7%. Which means only Black Ice can actually take down a protector.
Well, given enough combined strength of the Turret+Sentry (comparing uneven levels ofc,) then anything extra can take it down, be it Black ICE, a 3rd Turret, or even a 3rd/4th black node with AV (eventually). Black ICE does have the benefit of dealing damage in a big chunk ofc. But yeah, the breakeven point of a similar level protector seems to be 2 Turrets with Sentries. Good observation for folks wondering whether to use a Protector or not. #inbeforeshocker
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