Battering Ram or Blaster?

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HCX - DReaD
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Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by HCX - DReaD » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:15 am

I'm conflicted between Battering Ram and Blaster to kill off Code Gates...

- Both need 5 seconds to actually deal damage (4 second charge and 1 second transit)
[EDIT]: 3.5 second charge for both

- Blaster deals less DPS but can stun the Code Gate if it already has antivirus installed. This helps when the node where we install the Blaster has weak firewall (like Compiler), so we don't need to install ICE or Protector on it for it to survive until the Gate destroyed. Blaster will need about 6 hits to destroy the Code Gate, and it's not only the Code Strength but also the Firewall, so approximately 24 seconds to destroy a Code Gate.

- Ram can destroy Code Gate's Code Strength in 4 hits, with 5 seconds each hit for the total of 20 seconds. But this won't destroy the Firewall, so we still need few seconds to install and attack with other programs to destroy the Firewall. Adding the 20 seconds from Ram, it could be around 23~26 seconds in total to destroy the Code Gate.

- Blaster needs half the resources and time compared to Ram.

- Ram will focus on the Gate, whilst Blaster will get distracted to target other node (if there's any) that has higher priority.

- Ram use 5 space while Blaster use 6 space, hardly any difference.

- Ram needs 2 seconds to install while Blaster 5 seconds.

Based on these I'm leaning more towards Blaster. What the seniors think? Would Ram actually become far better and overshadow Blaster in higher levels? I'm currently lv14.

Also as a side note, Seems Worm can't do diddly to Code Gate when the Code Strength still up (the "HP bar" just won't deplete).

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Re: Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by iSpy » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:38 am

As a lvl 25 that targets 20-45, I always use blaster as it's time efficient. However, lately i don't even need it unless someone has connected the guardian to the code gate, for the bug I've mentioned in another thread. Majority of the time it's best to focus on upgrading beam cannons, currently sitting at a lvl 10 beam, able to wipe anything below a lv5 code gate with 2 and 3 for lvl 6&7.

One thing I would note is for the higher levels such as 8 and 9, a lvl 4 blaster really isn't able to do much, the filter seems to have much more of an impact. If you're attacking bases with walls below 8, gold with a hole in the middle, then stick with blasters, anything above would be wise to go with a ram imo.

Also in your calculations you didn't add the fact that as a result of not requiring a protector on the node with the blaster, you are able to install an additional beam, thus further increases the dps when compared to the ram in most situations. This was the deciding factor for me when i had this same dilemma.
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HCX - DReaD
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Re: Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by HCX - DReaD » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:50 am

iSpy wrote:As a lvl 25 that targets 20-45, I always use blaster as it's time efficient. However, lately i don't even need it unless someone has connected the guardian to the code gate, for the bug I've mentioned in another thread. Majority of the time it's best to focus on upgrading beam cannons, currently sitting at a lvl 10 beam, able to wipe anything below a lv5 code gate with 2 and 3 for lvl 6&7.

One thing I would note is for the higher levels such as 8 and 9, a lvl 4 blaster really isn't able to do much, the filter seems to have much more of an impact. If you're attacking bases with walls below 8, gold with a hole in the middle, then stick with blasters, anything above would be wise to go with a ram imo.

Also in your calculations you didn't add the fact that as a result of not requiring a protector on the node with the blaster, you are able to install an additional beam, thus further increases the dps when compared to the ram in most situations. This was the deciding factor for me when i had this same dilemma.
Since the bug is actually help us killing off Gate's Code Strength much faster, wouldn't it be cost-efficient to just use Beams on Guardian-protected Code Gates? Or the bug only works with Blaster?

And in this lv8 and 9 gates, you mean using lv1 Ram or..?
Also, I thought the filter is for increasing stealth programs install time? It does nothing like mitigating the damage from Beam or Blaster right? I thought the stat preventing us from damaging its firewall is called "Code Strength"?

I always install 1 Blaster, 1 Beam and 1 Worm at minimum to attack Code Gate since Worms can't deal any damage at all when the Code Strength still there xD (the 1 Worm is for replicating further ahead).

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Silken
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Re: Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by Silken » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:07 am

HCX - DReaD wrote:
Since the bug is actually help us killing off Gate's Code Strength much faster, wouldn't it be cost-efficient to just use Beams on Guardian-protected Code Gates? Or the bug only works with Blaster?

And in this lv8 and 9 gates, you mean using lv1 Ram or..?
Also, I thought the filter is for increasing stealth programs install time? It does nothing like mitigating the damage from Beam or Blaster right? I thought the stat preventing us from damaging its firewall is called "Code Strength"?

I always install 1 Blaster, 1 Beam and 1 Worm at minimum to attack Code Gate since Worms can't deal any damage at all when the Code Strength still there xD (the 1 Worm is for replicating further ahead).
No the filter works on all damage. Let's say a code gate has a fire wall of 500 and a filter of 80%. It basically means that the Fire Wall is 500 / 0.2 = 2500. A blaster doing 60 damage * 3.5 seconds is doing about 210 damage. Add the damage that Cannons are doing and a code gate falls in less than 30 second. So a minute to take out 2. Leaving you with two minutes to take a base. More than enough time.

As fire wall get larger with higher filter, I still think 2 blasters may be better than a Ram. Then at even higher levels, probably a ram and blaster at the same time. No idea on that through because I'm not even close to that level.

Rams are high level programs. Complete waste of b-coin and training time at most people levels. Average level being way below level 30 atm.

Not sure when people will need to start to use them. 50 maybe. I've no idea.

[Edit: Sorry just on the worm point. I wouldn't use it as a main point of attack. Use a Cannon Beam and once you have overtaken a node, go back and remove the Cannon to allow a worm to spread. Personally I have no time for worms. Maybe with a Kraken attack to keep the training costs low. Have the Kraken rip through the base and the worms to mop up the sides. Or if you have low libraries to mop up at the end. Otherwise i think they are ridiculous. I had a level 42 attack me with level 10 worms when i was a level 26. He couldn't even get pass my first choke point. Completely useless attack.
Last edited by Silken on Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Luminaar
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Re: Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by Luminaar » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:06 am

HCX - DReaD wrote: Also, I thought the filter is for increasing stealth programs install time? It does nothing like mitigating the damage from Beam or Blaster right?
The information on the Wiki was based on early findings from viewtopic.php?f=9&t=63#p582. It does indeed look as though the Filter is applied to damage reduction AND stealth programs, so I've adjusted the Wiki accordingly.

As before with my last request, if someone with more experience than myself would look over the page for consistency, it'd be appreciated :)

As for the Blaster vs Ram question, it truly is a matter of time needed against the people you're up against. I found that Blaster was doing a much more efficient job than Ram, but then started running out of time before I could loot all the resources. At lower levels it was fine, but up against the ~950 rep folks, if I'm not using a Ram then I'm leaving goodies behind. The extra 10 minutes compile time and extra B-coin costs are a drain for sure, but leaving with nothing sucks :P

As Silken said in a different thread, it's very easy to over-prepare and cost yourself time. It's also easy to underprepare and walk away empty handed :D
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HCX - DReaD
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Re: Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by HCX - DReaD » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:08 pm

Silken wrote:No the filter works on all damage. Let's say a code gate has a fire wall of 500 and a filter of 80%. It basically means that the Fire Wall is 500 * 0.2 = 2500. A blaster doing 60 damage * 3.5 seconds is doing about 210 damage. Add the damage that Cannons are doing and a code gate falls in less than 30 second. So a minute to take out 2. Leaving you with two minutes to take a base. More than enough time.

As fire wall get larger with higher filter, I still think 2 blasters may be better than a Ram. Then at even higher levels, probably a ram and blaster at the same time. No idea on that through because I'm not even close to that level.

Rams are high level programs. Complete waste of b-coin and training time at most people levels. Average level being way below level 30 atm.

Not sure when people will need to start to use them. 50 maybe. I've no idea.

[Edit: Sorry just on the worm point. I wouldn't use it as a main point of attack. Use a Cannon Beam and once you have overtaken a node, go back and remove the Cannon to allow a worm to spread. Personally I have no time for worms. Maybe with a Kraken attack to keep the training costs low. Have the Kraken rip through the base and the worms to mop up the sides. Or if you have low libraries to mop up at the end. Otherwise i think they are ridiculous. I had a level 42 attack me with level 10 worms when i was a level 26. He couldn't even get pass my first choke point. Completely useless attack.
Wait... 500 * 0.2 = 100 right?
So you mean, if my Blaster is doing 45 DPS, then it would be 45 - (45 * 80/100) = 45 - 36 = only 9 DPS at 80% filter??

Also on my Worm, it is actually pretty good at finishing other nodes that branches off, at least in my current level.
Luminaar wrote:The information on the Wiki was based on early findings from viewtopic.php?f=9&t=63#p582. It does indeed look as though the Filter is applied to damage reduction AND stealth programs, so I've adjusted the Wiki accordingly.

As before with my last request, if someone with more experience than myself would look over the page for consistency, it'd be appreciated :)

As for the Blaster vs Ram question, it truly is a matter of time needed against the people you're up against. I found that Blaster was doing a much more efficient job than Ram, but then started running out of time before I could loot all the resources. At lower levels it was fine, but up against the ~950 rep folks, if I'm not using a Ram then I'm leaving goodies behind. The extra 10 minutes compile time and extra B-coin costs are a drain for sure, but leaving with nothing sucks :P

As Silken said in a different thread, it's very easy to over-prepare and cost yourself time. It's also easy to underprepare and walk away empty handed :D
I see.. But the actual formula is not yet known? Just that it does mitigate the damage received by the Code Gate's Code Strength?

So wait... you were saying Blaster is more efficient against Code Gates but Ram can do it much quicker, to the point of you can miss the loot if using Blaster? Wouldn't that means Ram is more efficient??

Welp, I guess I will be taking Ram too then, since it seems I will be needing it anyway :)

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Re: Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by Silken » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:21 pm

HCX - DReaD wrote:
Wait... 500 * 0.2 = 100 right?
So you mean, if my Blaster is doing 45 DPS, then it would be 45 - (45 * 80/100) = 45 - 36 = only 9 DPS at 80% filter??

Also on my Worm, it is actually pretty good at finishing other nodes that branches off, at least in my current level.

I see.. But the actual formula is not yet known? Just that it does mitigate the damage received by the Code Gate's Code Strength?

So wait... you were saying Blaster is more efficient against Code Gates but Ram can do it much quicker, to the point of you can miss the loot if using Blaster? Wouldn't that means Ram is more efficient??

Welp, I guess I will be taking Ram too then, since it seems I will be needing it anyway :)
No I meant 500 / 0.2 = 2500 or 500 / 20% =2500. Same thing. I incorrectly put multiply.

If your blaster does 45 then the maths is either.
45*3.5= 157.5 at only 20% equals 31.5 against the firewall of 500.
or
500/0.2 = 2500. Blaster does 157.5 against 2500

Both the same calculation - 15.87 hits to take the Code Gate. But this is not including the Cannon damage. It's actually a lot less. Including Cannons probably only about 8 hits.

Rams are only better when the filter is really high. At our level probably up to level 50 they are wasted. Just keep levelling Blaster.
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Re: Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by HCX - DReaD » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:30 pm

Silken wrote:
No I meant 500 / 0.2 = 2500 or 500 / 20% =2500. Same thing. I incorrectly put multiply.

If your blaster does 45 then the maths is either.
45*3.5= 157.5 at only 20% equals 31.5 against the firewall of 500.
or
500/0.2 = 2500. Blaster does 157.5 against 2500

Both the same calculation - 15.87 hits to take the Code Gate. But this is not including the Cannon damage. It's actually a lot less. Including Cannons probably only about 8 hits.

Rams are only better when the filter is really high. At our level probably up to level 50 they are wasted. Just keep levelling Blaster.
Aaah okay. Thanks for the enlightenment master! ;)

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Re: Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by Luminaar » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:24 pm

HCX - DReaD wrote:Wait... 500 * 0.2 = 100 right? So you mean, if my Blaster is doing 45 DPS, then it would be 45 - (45 * 80/100) = 45 - 36 = only 9 DPS at 80% filter??
I believe he meant 500 / 0.2 = for an effective firewall of 2500 in that situation, but yeah, you get the idea. A 45 Strength Blaster should be hitting for (45 * 3.5 atk speed / 80% reduction) = 31.5 damage or 9 DPS in that situation.
HCX - DReaD wrote:So wait... you were saying Blaster is more efficient against Code Gates but Ram can do it much quicker, to the point of you can miss the loot if using Blaster? Wouldn't that means Ram is more efficient??
With a Level 5 Gate, Level 5 Beam, Level 1 Ram and a Level 1 Blaster, I have the Ram + 2 Beam combo taking 22.22 seconds and Blaster + 2 Beam Combo taking 27.6 seconds. (Not taking into account any shields needed - sometimes you can remove the Ram for a last second shield, sometimes the Blaster combo still needs shielding etc) It's up to you to suss out if those 5 seconds are going to make a difference between "lots of loot" and "ermergerdnoooo!"

(Sorry Silken, I started typing this ages ago but got distracted :P - cheers for responding :D)
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Re: Battering Ram or Blaster?

Post by Silken » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:38 pm

Luminaar wrote:With a Level 5 Gate, Level 5 Beam, Level 1 Ram and a Level 1 Blaster, I have the Ram + 2 Beam combo taking 22.22 seconds and Blaster + 2 Beam Combo taking 27.6 seconds. (Not taking into account any shields needed - sometimes you can remove the Ram for a last second shield, sometimes the Blaster combo still needs shielding etc) It's up to you to suss out if those 5 seconds are going to make a difference between "lots of loot" and "ermergerdnoooo!"

(Sorry Silken, I started typing this ages ago but got distracted :P - cheers for responding :D)
See, I would compare Level 3 Blaster to Level 1 Ram since they would both cost 40 B-Coin to make. I sort of always compare on cost, I'm pretty sure Blaster would win that match up. :D

And Ram goes up 20 cost each new compilation, whereas Blaster is only 10. So I would next compare level 5 Blaster to Level 2 Ram.

So basically it comes down to upgrade cost vs training time. i.e I have to spend a lot more B-Coin to upgrade my blaster. But at the same time I'm training twice as fast and attacking more.

I would rather train faster and play more to get the b-coin needed. Than to wait on the slow old Ram training. Slow slow grey old Ram. ;)

Edit: It's like the Hare vs Tortoise. Now there is a lot of nonsense about the tortoise winning the race. But this is for the benefit of kids. In real life that Hare won, went home, smoked a joint, had fun with his/her wife/husband, watched some TV, went out for a beer.....oh you get the picture.
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