The new update... worsened the game.

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TheLurkingRage
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The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheLurkingRage » Wed May 16, 2018 9:59 am

The only good things that came from the update was the XP refund function as it always should've been in the first place and more node slots. Everything else is a step backward. Seems like TA took all the worst advice scrubs threw at them and it all turned into this. Disappointed...

Making this post to see if my mind changes later on with more experience with the new additions and compare what I think now to then with every update including more details... if it's different at all.
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheLurkingRage » Thu May 17, 2018 11:15 am

I spent today bitching about the update on the discord server... two days ago I thought I'd spend the whole day hacking people 5 times each... :(

If I'm to trust Lumi's reactions to one of the messages in the discord server, it looks like Hawk level 21 will deal 482 in damage... that's insane... Shocker 21 really has been slaughtered D':

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Luminaar
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby Luminaar » Thu May 17, 2018 1:21 pm

While there's still plenty of tactical discussions to be had, Shocker hasn't been nerfed or slaughtered. Choke points that require shocking still exist.

The addition of the Hawk AI means that nodes within Hawk range are attacked on two fronts instead of one, which simply requires two different types of defence instead of one. Shockers are still superior against nodes with lots of security connections. All that is required is a way to combat the Hawk ...

You might need to break out of your previous thought process regarding "Shockers OR Walls/Protectors - but not both". :)
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby GamesShouldBeFun » Thu May 17, 2018 1:48 pm

Still waiting for wiki update...

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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheLurkingRage » Fri May 18, 2018 10:11 am

GamesShouldBeFun wrote:Still waiting for wiki update...

Wiki will be updated with all the new data on the 20th.
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby Hell_Diguner » Fri May 18, 2018 10:41 am

The way I see it, this update is specifically designed to protect more casual players from minmaxers. The AI nodes+programs buff both offense and defense, but with a one hour revive time, minmaxers who hack frequently can't rely on AIs as part of their normal program set.

My biggest questions are how powerful do AIs become at max level, and how much experience do you gain by that point? AIs might supplant other defense nodes like Guardians, Turrets, and possibly even Sentries as "most optimal" for certain network designs.
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheLurkingRage » Fri May 18, 2018 11:21 am

Luminaar wrote:While there's still plenty of tactical discussions to be had, Shocker hasn't been nerfed or slaughtered. Choke points that require shocking still exist.
That remains to be seen. Once we have the data for the AI we can do the papercraft theories on wether there are any Shocker-worthy choke points out there in the presence of these new additions.

Luminaar wrote:The addition of the Hawk AI means that nodes within Hawk range are attacked on two fronts instead of one, which simply requires two different types of defence instead of one. Shockers are still superior against nodes with lots of security connections. All that is required is a way to combat the Hawk ...
I see this as completely unnecessary. You're just simply providing more DPS to defense. It doesn't require two different types of defense, just the same old Protector. Idk what a way to combat the hawk could be if it out-ranges your attacks and is immune to the wraith program, a program that should of all things, be a fairly logical way to combat the hawk, but as it stands there's nothing you can do to keep it from doing its thing from the start.

Luminaar wrote:You might need to break out of your previous thought process regarding "Shockers OR Walls/Protectors - but not both". :)

Doing so would mean going against my core belief that helped me become good at the game. Efficiency in hacking is key to being able to find the most optimum strategy to hack and thus become a good hacker. Ignoring that, would mean that using Maniac, Kraken, Blaster and Battering Ram all at once to break a Code Gate would be just as fine as using a Shocker and Protector in the same choke. Lots of wasted programs when a single Battering Ram would've suffice, or a single Blaster if the Code Gate was low enough leveled.
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby Luminaar » Fri May 18, 2018 1:07 pm

TheLurkingRage wrote:That remains to be seen. Once we have the data for the AI we can do the papercraft theories on wether there are any Shocker-worthy choke points out there in the presence of these new additions.
The Hawk AI doesn't change the strength of nodes that are already connected to a choke point. If a players programs dictate that a triple Turret choke requires shocking to overcome now, a Hawk AI isn't going to change that fact.
TheLurkingRage wrote:Idk what a way to combat the hawk could be if it out-ranges your attacks and is immune to the wraith program, a program that should of all things, be a fairly logical way to combat the hawk...
ICE Wall. ^_^
The Hawk doesn't do any damage here. This is a visual bug related to Hawks interaction with Portal. :P
TheLurkingRage wrote:Doing so would mean going against my core belief that helped me become good at the game. Efficiency in hacking is key to being able to find the most optimum strategy to hack and thus become a good hacker.
When the input variables change (ie, the addition of the Hawk), using the same tactic you've always used probably isn't the most efficient anymore.
TheLurkingRage wrote:Ignoring that, would mean that using Maniac, Kraken, Blaster and Battering Ram all at once to break a Code Gate would be just as fine as using a Shocker and Protector in the same choke.
I see you mention this a alot, and you might need to reconsider this analogy. There are other variables to consider, including a players ICE Wall, Protector and Shocker strengths, and using a combination of methods to protect against both direct and indirect attacks, is not the same as purposefully using programs when they will deal the least damage.
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheLurkingRage » Sun May 20, 2018 9:51 am

GamesShouldBeFun wrote:Still waiting for wiki update...

Wiki has been updated with all the new data!
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheLurkingRage » Sun May 20, 2018 10:38 am

Luminaar wrote:The Hawk AI doesn't change the strength of nodes that are already connected to a choke point. If a players programs dictate that a triple Turret choke requires shocking to overcome now, a Hawk AI isn't going to change that fact.

The hawk AI changes that from level one. I now have incoming DPS that I have to deal with even after using a shocker, which means I might as well use a protector if I can't stop all incoming DPS and use all program slots available for my shurikens. Of course, on TLR because my protector is 13, I'll still need to rely on shocker to get through such a choke point until I level up my protector, but on Azu since my protector is level 18, I won't have a need for shocker where I otherwise woulda used a shocker because now protector on every choke point is more efficient than shocker. Only scenario old shocker strat is still viable is on shocker worthy choke points such as Festr's 3x Black ICE choke where the hawk is not present. With time those choke points will become a thing of the past and shocker will too as more and more people get back in the game and get that annoying little bird.

Luminaar wrote:ICE Wall. ^_^
The Hawk doesn't do any damage here. This is a visual bug related to Hawks interaction with Portal. :P
It was a visual bug that the firewall on that node was going down when the hawk (now pheonix) was attacking it? And by suggesting ICE Wall you are agreeing that shocker isn't the program of choice in such situation hence why the hawk has killed the shocker? I mean, shocking and using ICE Walls is gonna mess you up because eventually they break and you need to replace them which may take an extra program slot to replace the one about to break so you don't lose the node, then you must keep shocking and who knows how much DPS you need to take down the nodes you're fighting. So many programs wasted, so cumbersome, so why not use a protector right off the bat instead and avoid all the trouble? [/quote]

Luminaar wrote:When the input variables change (ie, the addition of the Hawk), using the same tactic you've always used probably isn't the most efficient anymore.
I acknowledge the fact the bettle has added stall time and hawk has added DPS to the defender's choke points, but even then the protector remains more efficient than shocker.

Luminaar wrote:I see you mention this a alot, and you might need to reconsider this analogy. There are other variables to consider, including a players ICE Wall, Protector and Shocker strengths, and using a combination of methods to protect against both direct and indirect attacks, is not the same as purposefully using programs when they will deal the least damage.

Idk what you meant there at the last bit about using programs when they will deal the least damage, but with all the new data available now, it looks like I'll have to max out my protector now to stand a chance against what is now gonna be the new maxed out DPS and great stall choke: 4 Black ICE 21 shielded by 3 golden guardians with a bettle 21 and hawk 21 on top of that. That is a choke point where I might have to double down on protector because it's almost too much DPS and stall time for a protector 21. Still not using a shocker with a protector there, because 2 protectors are more efficient than 1 protector and 1 shocker on the same node.

These AI didn't change the game up in a good, refreshing way. They're just an annoyance now because now I will need to use less programs to hack since the protector is now the most efficient program to use at any choke point over the shocker. This is all because of compile time and bitcoins cost efficiency that I don't think you see clearly judging from your stance on this argument. Shocker spamming scrubs on the other hand that lack knowledge and skill, will continue to shocker spam so the AI hasn't gotten rid of that issue, instead it's rendered the proper use of Shocker useless and that's what I'm salty about. There's less analyzing needed prior committing to a hack, less strategy, less programs needed to hack, so overall the game is less fun.
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