The new update... worsened the game.

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Luminaar
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby Luminaar » Sun May 20, 2018 12:38 pm

TheLurkingRage wrote:I now have incoming DPS that I have to deal with even after using a shocker, which means I might as well use a protector if I can't stop all incoming DPS and use all program slots available for my shurikens.
Then find a way to deal with the Hawk! Hence the suggestion of ICE Wall. Tactics will vary depending on program levels, so there's little point in discussing specific levels.

If you have a high enough ICE Wall to repel everything attacking the choke for 4 seconds, use ICE Wall + Protector. If you have enough damage to capture a single connected node, use ICE Wall + damage, and the Hawk will stop attacking the choke once there's a closer target. Programs not strong enough? Consider Shocker on the Turrets, ICE Wall against the Hawk, and either attack programs if you can blast through before Shocker/ICE Wall wears off, or Protector if not.
TheLurkingRage wrote:by suggesting ICE Wall you are agreeing that shocker isn't the program of choice in such situation hence why the hawk has killed the shocker?
Not at all! :roll: That's like playing Rock-Paper-Scissors, and saying Scissors are 100% useless because 75% of people open Rock. Shocker still has plenty of value in enabling you to reach, or change the attack target of, the Hawk.
TheLurkingRage wrote:Idk what you meant there at the last bit about using programs when they will deal the least damage
Your analogy of "using Maniac, Kraken, Blaster and Battering Ram all at once to break a Code Gate would be just as fine as using a Shocker and Protector in the same choke" is comparing `using programs when they will deal the least damage` with `using programs which are situationally ineffective`. While using those programs against a Code Gate is *always* ineffective, Shocker + Protector can provide maximum value and protection depending on the program levels a player has versus the incoming threat.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that can read binary, and those that cant.

TheIconianCat
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheIconianCat » Sun May 20, 2018 5:26 pm

TheLurkingRage wrote:
Luminaar wrote:The Hawk AI doesn't change the strength of nodes that are already connected to a choke point. If a players programs dictate that a triple Turret choke requires shocking to overcome now, a Hawk AI isn't going to change that fact.

The hawk AI changes that from level one. I now have incoming DPS that I have to deal with even after using a shocker, which means I might as well use a protector if I can't stop all incoming DPS and use all program slots available for my shurikens. Of course, on TLR because my protector is 13, I'll still need to rely on shocker to get through such a choke point until I level up my protector, but on Azu since my protector is level 18, I won't have a need for shocker where I otherwise woulda used a shocker because now protector on every choke point is more efficient than shocker. Only scenario old shocker strat is still viable is on shocker worthy choke points such as Festr's 3x Black ICE choke where the hawk is not present. With time those choke points will become a thing of the past and shocker will too as more and more people get back in the game and get that annoying little bird.

Luminaar wrote:ICE Wall. ^_^
The Hawk doesn't do any damage here. This is a visual bug related to Hawks interaction with Portal. :P
It was a visual bug that the firewall on that node was going down when the hawk (now pheonix) was attacking it? And by suggesting ICE Wall you are agreeing that shocker isn't the program of choice in such situation hence why the hawk has killed the shocker? I mean, shocking and using ICE Walls is gonna mess you up because eventually they break and you need to replace them which may take an extra program slot to replace the one about to break so you don't lose the node, then you must keep shocking and who knows how much DPS you need to take down the nodes you're fighting. So many programs wasted, so cumbersome, so why not use a protector right off the bat instead and avoid all the trouble?

Luminaar wrote:When the input variables change (ie, the addition of the Hawk), using the same tactic you've always used probably isn't the most efficient anymore.
I acknowledge the fact the bettle has added stall time and hawk has added DPS to the defender's choke points, but even then the protector remains more efficient than shocker.

Luminaar wrote:I see you mention this a alot, and you might need to reconsider this analogy. There are other variables to consider, including a players ICE Wall, Protector and Shocker strengths, and using a combination of methods to protect against both direct and indirect attacks, is not the same as purposefully using programs when they will deal the least damage.

Idk what you meant there at the last bit about using programs when they will deal the least damage, but with all the new data available now, it looks like I'll have to max out my protector now to stand a chance against what is now gonna be the new maxed out DPS and great stall choke: 4 Black ICE 21 shielded by 3 golden guardians with a bettle 21 and hawk 21 on top of that. That is a choke point where I might have to double down on protector because it's almost too much DPS and stall time for a protector 21. Still not using a shocker with a protector there, because 2 protectors are more efficient than 1 protector and 1 shocker on the same node.

These AI didn't change the game up in a good, refreshing way. They're just an annoyance now because now I will need to use less programs to hack since the protector is now the most efficient program to use at any choke point over the shocker. This is all because of compile time and bitcoins cost efficiency that I don't think you see clearly judging from your stance on this argument. Shocker spamming scrubs on the other hand that lack knowledge and skill, will continue to shocker spam so the AI hasn't gotten rid of that issue, instead it's rendered the proper use of Shocker useless and that's what I'm salty about. There's less analyzing needed prior committing to a hack, less strategy, less programs needed to hack, so overall the game is less fun.


this is just one huge opinion from what ive seeing. you dont want to change up your program compilation and relied heavily on one kind of playstyle or even worse one program compilation with one possible outcome. even when the change is something as simple as place your programs in a slightly different order.

level 18 protector can outheal a level 21 hawk and a level 14 protector will survive long enough for a double blaster to chew apart a choke point if you have a level 15 shocker and decently leveled blasters. if you dont believe me then here

level 15 shocker 10 second disable
level 16 ICE wall 1,880 buffer
level 14 protector 4,000 buffer 280 regeneration
level 21 hawk AI 482 DPS 241 damage per hit fires every .5 seconds.
effective damage on level 14 protector is 202 due to regeneration rate. protector will survive for 19.8 seconds. double the time of the shocker so you can use an ice wall to regen the protector.

now lets assume somebody is core level 11 going after a core 13 with a maxed out hawk AI alright. and maxed out guardians with maxed out black ices pretty substantial difference in available program levels. we already have the info on maxed hawk which i showed earlier.

the max level protector for core 11 is lvl18 buffer size 7,000 regeneration 490. it can outheal a max hawk all by itself.
Lvl 19 ICE wall buffer size 2,500
LVL 18 blaster DPS 450, damage per hit 1,575
Lvl 19 shocker disable time 12 seconds

LVL 21 guardian installed buffer size 1,250
LVL 21 Black ice Firewall 2,820

we already know our protector wont die to the hawk since it outheals it. so we can safely ice wall>shocker>protector and leave it at that and just double blaster. if you double blaster, and lets say this person has each black ice attached to all three guardians.theres actually two ways to do this, one is to outright brute force the entry with double blaster protector, would would be difficult but not impossible.

double blaster total damage per hit it 3,125 or taking out 2 guardian buffers and leaving 625 left. so every other volley would cut through and deal around 60 damage to the black ice node itself. so you obviously wont be winning that hack from there.

the other way is to use a battering ram to nullify the guardians so lets take a look at battering ram levels and remember this is if a core 11 attacked a maxed out core 13
Lvl 19 battering ram. damage per hit 2,695
both the ram and blaster have the same refire time so once the pattern has started it will lock in place. so you can time it with a little practice so that the battering ram will ALWAYS strike just before the blaster to remove as much of the guardian buffer as possible.
and look suddenly once you do this the remaining shielding after a battering ram is down to 1,055 which is 520 less than a blaster shot. on a node with 2820 firewall. yeah you wont be winning the hack in a speedy manner or getting a huge loot haul off. but even a core level 11 can humble the defenses on a maxed out core level 13 with the right comp. theres no excuse to whine about the hawk AI just because it forces you to try some things differently

and with the ability to max out programs at core 12 you can easily punch a core 13 network down to size if you pay attention. in all honesty i still think shocker is too strong early on you can still spam it behind a protector blaster before theres any real threat. and as we just discussed the hawk AI doesnt do a hugely good job stopping the protector let alone the shocker when you just ice wall it.

sadly though if you nerf the shocker there wont be a way through most of these choke points outside of stealth. i guess we're stuck in the same issue Riot games had with rengar. nerf him even slightly he becomes garbage, buff him even slightly he becomes a monstrous nightmare that cant be killed. no middle ground.
Come find me IG and hack me i love a challenge for defending my network :D 8-)

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TheLurkingRage
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheLurkingRage » Sun May 20, 2018 10:35 pm

TheIconianCat wrote:Theres no excuse to whine about the hawk AI just because it forces you to try some things differently

sadly though if you nerf the shocker there wont be a way through most of these choke points outside of stealth. i guess we're stuck in the same issue Riot games had with rengar. nerf him even slightly he becomes garbage, buff him even slightly he becomes a monstrous nightmare that cant be killed. no middle ground.

...wut

I just read all that and it doesn't seem like we're on the same page. I honestly don't think Lumi and I are on the same page either. It's like we're arguing about totally different things. Imma just wait 'til I get this video ready and post it here instead of keeping on writing only to get replied with... this.
Last legitimate #1 ranked hacker.

TheLurkingRage A.K.A Azussa, RepRipper and more
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TheIconianCat
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheIconianCat » Mon May 21, 2018 2:00 am

TheLurkingRage wrote:
Luminaar wrote:While there's still plenty of tactical discussions to be had, Shocker hasn't been nerfed or slaughtered. Choke points that require shocking still exist.
That remains to be seen. Once we have the data for the AI we can do the papercraft theories on wether there are any Shocker-worthy choke points out there in the presence of these new additions.

Luminaar wrote:The addition of the Hawk AI means that nodes within Hawk range are attacked on two fronts instead of one, which simply requires two different types of defence instead of one. Shockers are still superior against nodes with lots of security connections. All that is required is a way to combat the Hawk ...
I see this as completely unnecessary. You're just simply providing more DPS to defense. It doesn't require two different types of defense, just the same old Protector. Idk what a way to combat the hawk could be if it out-ranges your attacks and is immune to the wraith program, a program that should of all things, be a fairly logical way to combat the hawk, but as it stands there's nothing you can do to keep it from doing its thing from the start.

Luminaar wrote:You might need to break out of your previous thought process regarding "Shockers OR Walls/Protectors - but not both". :)

Doing so would mean going against my core belief that helped me become good at the game. Efficiency in hacking is key to being able to find the most optimum strategy to hack and thus become a good hacker. Ignoring that, would mean that using Maniac, Kraken, Blaster and Battering Ram all at once to break a Code Gate would be just as fine as using a Shocker and Protector in the same choke. Lots of wasted programs when a single Battering Ram would've suffice, or a single Blaster if the Code Gate was low enough leveled.


ok right here and in the previous message you wrote youre talking about how it added more DPS that cant be shocked and that this update slaughtered a program, the shocker, in the exact same stretch youre saying that the update worsened the game and then in the last paragraph of this message youre saying the only reason you got to be good was by being as efficient as possible with your hacking. well the most efficient way to use shockers before the AI update was max out shockers for your level max out shurikens for your level, bring some accesses and wraiths and some ICE walls and just demolish a network so that it never gets a chance to resist.

the Hawk AI makes it so people cant do that. it doesnt slaughter the shocker. it makes it so you have to be intelligent with your program compilation and actually think about how youre going to move in on a network instead of just disabling everything. and as i already pointed out in my long drawn out message you can still use the exact same old shocker strat to the same effectiveness just by adding a protector or two for choke points
Come find me IG and hack me i love a challenge for defending my network :D 8-)

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Hell_Diguner
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby Hell_Diguner » Tue May 22, 2018 7:31 pm

The Worms main I'm building was hit hard by this update. Upgrading Worms generates a ton of experience (not to mention it's expensive), and even Worms 21 are trash compared to Beams and Shuriken. Relying on Shocker for that extra program slot was the only viable strategy. With the introduction of the bird AI, I now have to upgrade Protector or Ice, reducing my effective DPS and further inflating my level. I was never going to be able to climb rep with that account, but now I'm not even sure I'll be able to keep playing it past level 50 or so.

It seems the beetle is the intended counter, but with a 1 hour "compile" time, that's not an option. For hacking that infrequently, I would have to switch to farms as my primary source of income, which will further inflate my level. I suspect this is the heart of why Lurking is so furious: one of the most prominent minmax strategies was nerfed pretty hard, and the counter TA provided us is not a viable minmax strategy. I imagine the counter works just fine if you only hack once an hour, but hacking that infrequently is the polar opposite of the strategy that caused people to focus on only Protector or only Shocker in the first place. It isn't compatible with the networks and program sets that some people spent a lot of time (investment) building. The "only Protector" strategy is still viable, but the "only Shocker" strategy is not.
Hell_Diguner - C12L39, Had C12L29 (world record), Shuriken main
DiaboliExMachina - C12L38, Worms+Maniac main
CaptainDavyJones - C12L39, Beams main, will eventually be Kraken main

TheIconianCat
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Re: The new update... worsened the game.

Postby TheIconianCat » Sun May 27, 2018 7:35 am

Hell_Diguner wrote:The Worms main I'm building was hit hard by this update. Upgrading Worms generates a ton of experience (not to mention it's expensive), and even Worms 21 are trash compared to Beams and Shuriken. Relying on Shocker for that extra program slot was the only viable strategy. With the introduction of the bird AI, I now have to upgrade Protector or Ice, reducing my effective DPS and further inflating my level. I was never going to be able to climb rep with that account, but now I'm not even sure I'll be able to keep playing it past level 50 or so.

It seems the beetle is the intended counter, but with a 1 hour "compile" time, that's not an option. For hacking that infrequently, I would have to switch to farms as my primary source of income, which will further inflate my level. I suspect this is the heart of why Lurking is so furious: one of the most prominent minmax strategies was nerfed pretty hard, and the counter TA provided us is not a viable minmax strategy. I imagine the counter works just fine if you only hack once an hour, but hacking that infrequently is the polar opposite of the strategy that caused people to focus on only Protector or only Shocker in the first place. It isn't compatible with the networks and program sets that some people spent a lot of time (investment) building. The "only Protector" strategy is still viable, but the "only Shocker" strategy is not.


Correct me if I’m wrong here. I think I understand your point so I’m going to formulate my response based on what I’m getting though I’m not 100% sure. Currently in the game I’m horribly underleveled for where I am. My program levels are atrociously low and my network is rushed as hell. By comparison to comparable networks. Part of the goal of this update was to prevent people from relying on a combination of like 3 programs and maxing them to just power wipe networks.. granted it did outright nerf some programs effectiveness the worm, shocker, and shurikens all got hit hard by the beetle and hawk respectively but it’s meant to be hard on comps with little versatility.

Now as for inflated network level. I don’t have much of an issue with inflated level. I’m ahead of where I should be rep wise. I just have a lot of time on my hands so I’m almost always online minus when all my building threads are busy. If you’re a minmax network with an inflated rep level and network level by the current standards then you need to tank your rep. Save some credits, don’t waste them on reviving the AI and tackle some farm networks at lower reps and have NO activity while your programs are updating. It’s slow, it’s grueling it’s tedious and you will hate it but you will be able to get your programs on track for a effective comp to tackle the AI.

Also I’m not exactly sure why the DPS thing is an issue. My DPS gets me into a network and usually downloads EVERYTHING with 20 to 40 seconds to spare. My standard comp is (and I will not be including the AI since I don’t use them as they’re still upgrading)

8 level 9 accesses
3 level 7 wraiths
1 level 6 portal
50 level 18 beams
10 level 11 shurikens
25 level 14 ICE walls
3 level 9 blasters
4 level 10 protectors
5 level 9 krakens
3 level 8 shockers
4 level 9 battering rams

With exception to a few networks where I was autistic and missed a node position when I cased the network. This compilation works universally and I’m MASSIVELY underleveled in my programs. I’m core 11 and this comp still can tackle some core 12s and properly leveled core 11s it doesn’t take a whole lot to make a universal comp to get resources from networks. Even if you’re underleveled just pick and choose targets wisely. And if you’re a minmaxer and overleveled for the new system then rep drop to where the networks are feasible. But the goal of the update was to stop people spam leveling 2 or 3 programs and wiping people all the way up to max level. At least from what I’ve read from TA
Come find me IG and hack me i love a challenge for defending my network :D 8-)


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